Most Things People Say About Me Are Not True
By Chris Ajaero & Victor Ugborgu
Tuesday, November 08, 2005
T.B. Joshua, general overseer, The Synagogue Church of All Nations spoke to Chris Ajaero, associate editor and Victor Ugborgu, staff writer on his pact with Chris Oyakhilome of Christ Embassy, state of the nation, and what Nigerians should expect in 2007. Excerpts:
Newswatch: For quite sometime now, you have not been commenting on national issues. Is it that you have resigned to fate or you are satisfied with what is happening in this country?
Joshua: It is true that for sometime now I have kept to myself. I believe that there is time for everything. Time to laugh and time to cry. Time to talk and time to be silent. So you are right to observe that I have not been talking all these while. I am beginning to see that an atmosphere of unbelief makes it difficult to believe. This is the situation I have found myself in this country.
Jesus found himself in the same situation when people based their belief on what they saw or knew about him. Is he not the son of Joseph the Carpenter, is he not the son of Mary, is he not the brother of Judas, Simon and James? These were the questions the people asked concerning Jesus and they looked at him with scorn, and unbelief.
Newswatch: At the initial stage most Nigerians embraced the Synagogue and many of them are worshipping here even till today. Why then do you say that Nigerians don't believe you? Is it because you are a Nigerian?
Joshua: No. That is not what I am saying. What I am actually saying is that there is division among the people. You cannot expect all the people to say that a particular man is good. It is never seen anywhere, where all the people will attest to the goodness of one man. Even the Bible said that Jesus had the same experience. According to the Bible - among the crowd, there were divisions; some said Jesus was a good man, others said no, he was bad. There is always a division among the people where there is truth, where there is goodness. There are two ways of looking at a particular thing; the good and the bad. People who look at the human part of me, have limited scope, while those who look at the spiritual or God's part of me have unlimited perspective. Many people tend to look at the human part of a man and pass wrong judgment on the person, which is what is happening between the Nigerian people and me. I believe that there is time for everything. I think if God wants me to talk. I will do just that.
Newswatch: As a prophet of God, you are supposed to alert the people on the dangers ahead or educate the people on what is happening in the nation. But we have not seen these in recent times. Does it mean you are satisfied with what is happening in Nigeria today?
Joshua: Charity, they say, begins at home. When I said I decided to keep to myself, I mean that the revelations the Lord has shown to me in the past which I mentioned in my church at different times, no one actually gave thought to those revelations. You could remember the 2002 bomb blast in Lagos. The previous Sunday, I told the people that there would be a bomb blast in Lagos. I told the people to pray and fast to avert the attendant destruction. Nobody listened to me. And there was a bomb blast in which a lot of things happened. You remember the plane crash that killed the minister of sports. In one of my services, I mentioned that there would be a plane crash that would consume one of the ministers. I urged the people to pray to avert the danger. People did not listen to that either. There are lots of such revelations in the past, which were mentioned, but nobody took notice of such warnings. I am not trying to boast on what I am doing for God, rather I am boasting on what God does in my life. If I start recounting the goodness of the Lord, it would amount to self-righteousness. In the past, God used his prophets to speak to the people so that they would not perish, the same thing is happening today. I have had a lot of revelations and I have fasted and prayed that the dangers be averted but it is not a matter of fasting and prayers, but according to his abundant grace. I told my members a few Sundays ago that there would be a disagreement that would affect the government. God showed me that there would be crisis among government officials that would make the government to lose focus. I saw it coming, that which would distract the attention of the government. I know that I am supposed to say it openly, but I restrained myself because the ones I said in the past were not heeded to.
Newswatch: How does the disagreement you mentioned affect the country?
Joshua: Very much. This is not what we are praying for. Once there is a disagreement in the leadership of any nation, things will not be the same again. Two believers are better than one if only they can be one. The implication of what is happening in the country is that the leaders we looked up to for one thing or another, are washing their dirty linens in the open. Many things the public suppose not to hear, things they suppose to solve among themselves, are now being exposed. It is like in a marriage, there are many things husbands and wives keep away from the public, the moment such things are said openly or brought to public knowledge, you should know that something is wrong somewhere.
Newswatch: We know you are referring to the rift between President Obasanjo and his deputy Atiku Abubakar. What does it portend to the future of this country?
Joshua: Where there is the fear of God, misunderstanding leads to understanding. Naturally, there cannot be understanding without misunderstanding. The greater there is misunderstanding, the more the understanding, that is, where there is God.
Newswatch: Do you see this problem being resolved amicably?
Joshua: The problem will be resolved, but there is something we call spirit administration and ordinary administration. At the level of ordinary administration, it could be resolved, but not at the level of spirit administration. In other words, politically, it could be resolved, that is, in the politics of the world; but at the level of spirit administation, which is empowered by the Holy Spirit, it cannot be resolved. So politically, it could be settled, but not at the spiritual level.
Newswatch: Considering the insurgence from MASSOB, Niger Delta Youths and other problems and the recent US Security report which said Nigeria may collapse in the next 15 years, do you see that coming to pass?
Joshua: Nigeria is God's own nation. The nation cannot be destroyed, but what we sowed is what we are going to reap. Today is to plant, tomorrow is for reaping. In the political system, I am seeing a different thing on the board. For instance, all the people that are interested in contesting the presidential election, I am seeing a different thing all together. Man proposes, God disposes. God has a different plan for the nation. I have continued to ask God to speak to the hearts of these people in positions of authority so that they will know God's plan. But God said His word would reach them at the appropriate time. My prayer is for God to speak to these presidential aspirants so that they don't waste their time and money in vain. They should pray against wasting their efforts, time and money. It will be good for them to know the will of God concerning their ambition.
Newswatch: Does it mean that the alleged third term agenda of President Obasanjo will come to pass?
Joshua: Listen to me; I never said that the people jostling for presidency are wasting their time. I never said so. What I said is that politics is a game just like football. If you fail to win in a particular game that does not mean you will not try another day. In politics, there is nothing wasted. Experience is always the best teacher. Concerning our president, I have listened to him on several occasions. He said on BBC that he would stand on his words to leave in 2007 and I heard him loud and clear.
Newswatch: And if he is standing on his words, why is he waging war against those who are believed to be opposed to his third term agenda?
Joshua: If what people are saying about Obasanjo's war against some people and repositioning of people in their party is connected to his plan to prolong his tenure, I have this to say: This country is owned by God and by the people. That is why I said, today is to plant and tomorrow is to reap what we have planted.
Newswatch: How are we really planing considering the level of crisis in the ruling party and level of corruption in the country to the extent that one of the governors was arrested in Britain over money laundering?
Joshua: You reap what you have planted. You cannot plant mango and expect to reap sugarcane. I want you to know that the issue of corruption is everywhere, from the market places, the average market woman wants to swindle her customer and make outrageous profit. If such a person is in government what do you think will happen. That is one level of corruption. But we keep on pointing at the people in positions of authority. The truth is that we have not done enough to discourage people from indulging in corrupt practices; we need to overhaul the entire system, from the grassroots to the highest level of governance. The issue of corruption has been in there for the past 35 years. In order words, the age of corruption in Nigeria is 35 years, and for you to bend a 35 year-old man would be a little difficult. The issue could have been dealt with at a much younger age, but at this age it is very difficult. You know the problem President Obasanjo is facing? Right from the beginning, he lacked disciples. A tree cannot make a forest. He had no disciples. It was towards the end of his first term now that he had one or two disciples. Other people's disciples cannot be loyal to you. Somebody whom you trained cannot transfer his loyalty to another man. His loyalty will be with the man that gave him the training. I think that is the problem with President Obasanjo. He needs inspired people, informed people to rule this country. No leader can rule successfully with the power from outside. No ruler can succeed with those whose loyalty are limited, those whose love and understanding cannot stand the test of time. Any love that cannot stand the test of time is not real love. If he is working with true disciples they should possess a kind of love that would help him through the government policies and programmes.
That is what I mean by power from outside. The president might have the majority following him, but their love cannot stand the test of time, that is why you have the level of corruption in the country. In a situation where the majority cannot listen to what the leader wants, the leader is bound to fail.
Now from what I am seeing and the way things are going, this country needs prayers. If we are prayerful, I believe God will answer our prayers.
Newswatch: What is the way out of this corruption that has put our country into trouble?
Joshua: The way out is that T. B. Joshua should check himself before accusing others of one wrong doing or the other. If I want to say that somebody is bad, I have to make sure that I am not as bad as the person I am condemning. My condemnation of wrong doing will only have effect if I am free from corruption. The people that are being accused of corruption grew up in our midst, likewise the president. Those who are talking about corruption also grew up in our midst. We should take up our problems from the root not from the top. If T. B. Joshua should say you are bad, he must make sure that there is nothing bad in him. But if the contrary is the case, he might be wasting his time talking about corruption.
Newswatch: But many men of God believe that the reason President Obasanjo is not making any headway in the fight against corruption or in alleviating the sufferings of Nigerians is that the Spirit of God has since departed from him. What do you say to that?
Joshua: If what is happening in this government is not seen in other nations, then something is wrong in the government. As a man of God, I have to be sure of what is on ground before I make my comments concerning this government. Before you can say that somebody is bad, you must check yourself. When it comes to men of God making comments, I leave it for them. I don't want to be joined in that issue; because we are not given the right to judge.
What are the signs that really show that the Spirit of God has departed from him?
I think Nigeria is bigger than a single individual. We should stop looking at an individual as the cause of one problem or the other in the country. Nigeria is bigger than that. If that person is no longer with us can't Nigeria move forward? Let us see our individual assignments as our own contributions to the future of the country.
Newswatch: Are you trying to say that the hard times we are facing now is what we sowed in the past?
Joshua: Let me tell you one thing. We Nigerians should know what we are expected to do at the right time. Until we start seeing our assignments as our contribution to the life of the nation, we will be wasting our time criticising others. Many Nigerians don't see their contributions as assignments from God. If you do what you know how to do best, you will be happy. You don't need to earn huge salaries to take care of your family, but the joy of doing that which you know best; you will find happiness in your life. But today people don't mind doing what they don't even know how to do, just to get money. There is a difference between working for money and working for joy or satisfaction. Many people that are working with the president see their assignments as those from their boss. All the ministers don't work to please the people, rather they try to please the president. A minister should see his assignment as a contribution to nation building, and the person cannot afford to fail.
My message to the nation is that everybody should see the country as belonging to all of us and not just one person.
Newswatch: As a man of God, do you see the emergence of a listening president in 2007?
Joshua: Look at the history of Nigeria, who is that president that has done the right thing? Right from the time of independence, different presidents come with different agenda and in the middle of their tenure, something bad will happen. Anybody who wants to be president should ask God to give him a different posture so that he will be different from the past ones that achieved nothing.
Newswatch: But you are talking from the spiritual realm…
Joshua: The problem of this government and the problem of Nigeria right from the beginning is the system of using those they did not know to govern the people. In other worlds, they use other people's disciple and fail.
Newswatch: But do you foresee the situation where the person who will succeed Obasanjo will use his own disciples?
Joshua: What do you want Obasanjo to do?
Newswatch: Do you think the person that will succeed Obasanjo will not achieve more? What type of person do you envisage?
Joshua: Right from the beginning, right from independence, who is the president that has done what the people wanted? Their failures were as a result of their resolve to use strange fellows as disciples. They can achieve better with their own disciples.
If you are talking of President Obasanjo today and to forget his ability to hold the country together you are not saying the truth. God called David a man after his heart, but the Bible says David failed, and he acknowledged that his sins were even always before him. Paul one of the greatest apostles of Jesus admitted that he did what he did not want to do. When the error is too much, that is when he finds fault.
Do you understand? So whatever happens now is happening because the nation, Nigeria right from independence, the presidents that have ruled failed, because, they did not have their own disciples.
Newswatch: That is what we are asking you, whether the person that will succeed Obasanjo will use his own disciples in order to succeed?
Joshua: But president Obasanjo is still there we cannot talk about the person that will succeed him when he is still there.
Newswatch: But he has a time limit, he should leave office in 2007.
Joshua: We are still in 2005 and you are talking about 2007. You know I told you something about this country, I want God to speak to the heart of the politicians so that they will know God's plan. Tell people that care to listen; God has a different plan for us. What is happening to us now, whatever lesson we need to learn should be learnt.
Newswatch: Does it mean that God wants Obasanjo to continue beyond 2007 so that Nigeria can remain one?
Joshua: With what is on ground, we talk of reconciliation before election. We have to reconcile ourselves before election. With the situation on ground, we don't talk of election. What should occupy the minds of Nigerians is how to reconcile the various groups and situations. The election is not as important as the reconciliation I am talking about. Let us unite first. Right now we are speaking different languages. There are more wranglings here and there. We need to reconcile before we can continue. We have to check ourselves before going further to condemn this or that man.
Remember what happened when the Jews brought an adulterous woman before Jesus. Jesus put them to test, by saying that anyone of them that has not committed the same sin the woman committed should throw the first stone. But when they looked at their lives, they left the scene one after the other.
Jesus then addressed the woman to go and sin no more. Left for him he has nothing against the woman.
Newswatch: They were people with conscience; can the same happen in the present situation? With the picture you have painted, so far, does it mean there would be no election in 2007?
Joshua: What is the meaning of election? Does the situation on ground call for an election?
Newswatch: Yes. In accordance with the constitution, we are supposed to have a general election in 2007.
Joshua: With the situation on ground, Nigeria needs prayers to be together first so that you will not accuse anybody of not being interested in the election. We are passing through trials; harsh times and these hard times will improve. Let us talk about how to overcome the hard times and not election. It is too early to talk about election. If you are talking about election, you overlook the hard times. Instead of Nigerians to talk about hard times, they are talking about election.
There is a battle in the country, there is need for reconciliation and after that we can talk of election. That is what I am talking about.
Newswatch: But there have been reconciliation moves in the past, the Oputa Panel, the last National Conference, PRONACO is currently organising its own. Are these moves not enough to have an election in 2007 as enshrined in the constitution?
Joshua: What is the outcome of those moves? Why do we call it reconciliation? Reconciliation has to do with when two of us say we are sorry for the past and move forward together. That is the meaning of reconciliation. These moves you mentioned are not really reconciliatory. The fact that the people were meeting does not make them reconciliatory. Whether the reports were implemented or not, the meetings were not reconciliatory. The situation on ground is an atmosphere of unbelief. The atmosphere of unbelief makes it difficult to believe. That is all I want to say about election.
Newswatch: Why have you found it difficult to expand your church beyond Lagos?
Joshua: The first thing a good leader needs to do is to reproduce, develop people's skills so that they can even do better than the leader himself. There is time to develop skills that serve as legacy. So many people today seek for skills with God's character. There are many skills without God's character. It took the church sometime to move out of Lagos, because we want the best. We have branches in Benin, Akure, Kogi State, Jos, Port Harcourt, Ghana, Austria, Greece, South Africa, England and other parts of the world. Recently, we opened a branch in South Korea. I have no time to move around Africa. I have a lot of job to do. We have branches in many countries, the church is just 22 years old, and we are making progress.
Newswatch: We were amazed when your media man led us to the mountain where you commune with God. We are also amazed by the number of white people in your church. But why is it that most Nigerians still doubt your powers and some believe you are not using the power of God. How do you feel when people say such things?
Joshua: Just like the question you asked about President Obasanjo, I know what it took me to be here today. Most things said about me are not true. Here in Nigeria, everybody wants to be in Aso Rock. Nobody wants to take over from Prophet T.B Joshua. Right from the beginning of the ministry, I have been struggling my way out of doubts. Just like Jesus, people asked questions, is he not the son of Joseph the carpenter, son of Mary, brother of James and so on? Like some people also ask where I am coming from?
We have theology school, he did not attend, we have universities, and he did not attend any and all that. Read the Gospel, according to John chapter seven verse 12. You will see where the crowd argued about Jesus. Some people said he is a good man while others said he is bad, yet Jesus ignored them and went ahead doing good. They tried to question his educational background, where he got his knowledge. Anytime there is division among men, concerning a certain man of God, that is the time he increases in faith. Take your time, don't listen to what others are saying, don't take side. Remember Nicodemus and the question he asked Jesus showed that he had some doubts. This man, you are not a man of God, you cannot do this mighty thing, and he must formed his opinion before going to Jesus.
If not because of what Nigerians are saying about me, do you think the glory of God would be so marvelous here? I am enjoying the situation they created. I enjoy the atmosphere of unbelief, because it makes me move closer to God and my ministry is growing faster.
Newswatch: You mean, you don't feel bad about it?
Joshua: That is the level you know. Let me give you some information about my experiences. When I was in South Korea, there was a letter they showed me written by Nigerians. The letter said, that I am not a Christian. There was a publication there where they alleged that I am not a Christian. But the Koreans said they have heard the information but must see me and my action before they pass judgment.
They told me that if I say that all Nigerians are bad, they would listen to me, but wait for the said Nigerians to perform their bad act. They said the information they got about a person would not make them prevent the person from coming to their area. We have faith as an evidence of that which is not seen. Everywhere I go, I keep on spreading the good news of the Lord. It is not my duty to tell them that all they hear or must have heard about me is true or not true.
Go to the Internet, you see things for yourself. T.B. Joshua is a thief, devil; he is not a Christian or man of God and all the nonsense. If you are living for what God called you to do you will be ready to die for the work and nothing can stop you from success.
Look at what Gamaliel said in the Bible - in the book of Act 5 - he said, "Men of Israel consider carefully what you do with these men, sometime ago a man appeared, he claimed to be important and about 400 men joined him. He was killed and his followers scattered. The whole movement was a failure. After that man, at the time of t he census, Judas from Galilee appeared and led people in the community. He himself died and his followers scattered. We should keep away from these men for now, we should leave them alone, and I can guarantee that if the plan they are to put into action is of man, all will lead to vanity, but if it is of God, we will even discover that we are fighting the Almighty. That is where I stand.
Newswatch: How often do you go to the mountain to commune with God?
Joshua: A Christian should have two lives. When to work and time to rest. Time to work is time to give and time to rest is time to receive from God. I go there to ask God certain questions concerning my ministry and my activities. The mountain is a communication point between the visible and the invisible. My people perish for lack of knowledge; they should listen and obey the word of God.
Newswatch: Many people don't know how you received your calling. How exactly did you receive your calling?
Joshua: Anytime I talk, I give glory to God because I tell you there is nothing I will achieve by my power. Is it education, my educational background, it is nothing to write home about. I come from a very poor background. Right from my childhood, something in me never allowed me to do what others were doing. Truly something in me kept me away from doing those things I would like to do which my friends were doing. My peers saw me as a sluggish boy, a deviant (Ori oko). I lost my father when I was still young. What I wanted to do then was to go to casinos and enjoy what other boys were doing but it did not go that way.
Up till now, God does not allow me to do what I want to do. I wanted to do something different from what I am doing now. I would have loved to go out there, eat something delicious and all what not. Where I want to go is not where I am going. I wanted to do things that were easier, but God has a different plan for me. And the Holy Spirit has aided me to do what I am doing. Without the Holy Spirit, even if you fast and pray for 30 days, it will be a waste.
God has been involved in my ministry and he has been with me right from childhood.
Newswatch: When exactly did you receive the calling, the vision which led to the establishment of Synagogue and the gospel you're preaching today?
Joshua: There was nowhere in the Bible that Jesus discusses his background. He never looked back even when they doubted his ministry. This is why it is difficult for me to tell you when and where I received the calling. One thing God was able to achieve greatly is that God kept me away from doing those things that could have distanced me from Him.
Newswatch: What is your relationship with Pastor Chris Oyakhilome? It was alleged sometime ago that he visited you to obtain power from you.
Joshua: Power comes from God. No one has any power to give to some other person. God gives power. If two men of God came together, what is wrong about that? Did Oyakhilome say he did not come to Synagogue? Did anybody say I did not visit him at Christ Embassy? The result of two believers visiting each other is what you are seeing now. Do you see failure in both churches? Since you learnt that he came to Synagogue and I went to Christ Embassy, did you see failure in my life? Do you see failure in his life? Are the ministries declining? That is the essence of two men of God coming together. You know the standard of his ministry before he came here; you know the standard of my ministry before I went to Christ Embassy. Do you see the two ministries remaining the same? The two believers came together for the betterment of the gospel.
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