2003 Presidency
Why Buhari Must Beg IBB —Jubril Aminu

Professor Jibril Aminu, outgoing Nigerian ambassador to the United States, talks to Soji Akinrinade, Newswatch deputy editor-in-chief,  in Washington, DC on the problems President Obasanjo still faces in the North, the 2003 and 2007 presidential elections and other key national and international issues

Newswatch: The last time we spoke, President Bill Clinton was just leaving and President George Bush Jnr. just coming in. How has Nigerian and African relations been with America since Bush came in? Has the situation matched your expectations or not?

Aminu: I think between Nigeria and America things improved a lot since the return to civilian rule. That has been obvious since the Clinton days. But it does not mean that there are no worries being expressed about each other’s behaviour. For example, Americans are very worried about the situation in Nigeria-American government, American supported-NGOs including organisations like the NDI (National Democratic Institute). They have their own concerns about Nigeria , particularly about the economy. The IMF issued a report saying Nigerian economy experienced negative growth of nearly one percent when we should really be growing 10 percent forward. They are worried about some of the riots and crises we have. And now, in particular, they are very worried about the elections. They are very anxious. They want to see the election conducted better and they want to see elections come and go in peace. How will the elections impact the peace and stability of the country because America still regards Nigeria along with South Africa as the two most important nations in planning strategies for the development of Africa ? So they have their worries.

On the other hand we in Nigeria have our worries about America . We worry about American delivery. Nice conversations, nice talk but what follows? Nigeria would like to see America more forthcoming on the big issues like the Millennium Challenge Account, like our problem with debt, like our problem with investment, including FDI, (Foreign Direct Investment). I think Nigeria would like to see America move faster on these things. Nigeria is also now worried about America ’s foreign policy, particularly these drums of war against Iraq . Nigeria opposes it along with nearly every country in the world. But America as our friend insists on going along with it and we have not been able to stop them. Nobody has been able to seriously influence their determination. This is an area I think Nigeria would never agree with the United States . While we will continue to work with them to contain terrorism but Nigeria does not believe that the impending war in Iraq is part of an accepted strategy against terrorism. Generally, however, the difference between now and the time General Abacha was in power is that things are now sorted out as arguments between friends rather than using issues to insult each other.

Newswatch: You have mentioned the problems with foreign direct investment yet people continue to build hope on NEPAD. Isn’t NEPAD just a paper tiger?

Aminu: NEPAD is not a paper tiger. It stands the danger of being an unknown idol because, honestly, and I am speaking both as a Nigerian official and a private citizen, African governments have not cared to get Africans to associate with it fully. Certainly what is happening in Nigeria is what is happening in all parts of Africa . There are very few Africans who know about NEPAD. I once asked how involved were our universities in preparing this blueprint for the development of Africa ? Nothing, nobody said anything. I don’t believe that people in Nigeria know anything about NEPAD. People who pronounce N like L think you are even talking about leopard. That’s how bad the problem is. But it is not a paper tiger. It is nice, crisp and it will help Africa . But the problem it is facing is that it has given the Western nations a way, a handle to catch us because we said the whole NEPAD strategy will be based on democracy, good governance, and market economy and they are holding us to it. Even before anybody knows about NEPAD in Africa , they have been holding us accountable on it, namely Zimbabwe . They say if we are serious about good governance, how could we tolerate what is happening in Zimbabwe ? But, of course, Zimbabwe is very complicated. That is not the subject of this interview. But NEPAD is not a paper tiger. It is a very well-conceived programme. I will like more Africans to know about it and make their input. And I will also like the world to know that Africa is trying to improve on its own by itself and even that alone is encouraging.

Newswatch: You said Nigeria is opposed to America going to war in Iraq , but that we are backing them on terrorism issue. Doesn’t that create problem for us, especially remembering the Osama bin Laden demonstrations in Nigeria ?

Aminu: No, it doesn’t. Even today, as we are talking people are demonstrating at The Mall, in Washington , DC here against the war. Even the most prominent people in America and Britain are saying: ‘yes the war against terrorism, fine; but war against Iraq , no.’ If you listen to Mr. Al Gore, the man Mr. Bush was said to have beaten, he said ‘the war in Iraq is going to divert our attention from the war on terror.’ So people do not link the two of them.

Newswatch: But in Nigeria , as I have said, we had the problems of serious demonstrations because some people thought Nigeria was overly supporting America over the Osama bin Laden issue.

Aminu: Yes, we had demonstrations. But I told the Americans, (members of the Senate, foreign relations committee, the Africa sub-committee) more than once that ‘yes, you support democracy in Nigeria , you support plurality of thoughts and action, you support people to express themselves and the young people are doing so.’ I said ‘you also support expanding education. We have a lot of universities in Nigeria and therefore these young people will express themselves. How do you expect them to agree with what you are doing?’ Then they will say to you: ‘yes, but we went to Kano and everybody is naming their child after Osama.’ It is not everybody. They say there are pictures of Osama bin Laden all over the market. But I told them there are pictures of Che Guevara, pictures of Ayatollah Khomeini all over the place. It is just some kind of idealism. It doesn’t mean that we supported the bombing of the World Trade Center . No. Osama represented some kind of symbol of resistance to a very mighty nation. That’s all.

Newswatch: But with the level of violence that greeted the Osama campaign and also the recent Miss World competition in Nigerian, isn’t it clear that there is a rise in fundamentalism in Nigeria and that the Americans would be worried?

Aminu: People can say this sort of thing but it is not true. The thing that makes them talk about fundamentalism is, of course, the sharia court system. That’s not the point. I think you and I can now see that in Nigeria , people have reached a point where any little thing could trigger violence and people begin to kill each other. You can also see this being triggered as a result of a football match. And I have been worried about this for a long time and I said it in a lecture I gave at NIPSS at the time of General Abacha. I said the value of human life is worth nothing in our country. When I was installed chancellor of  the University of Makurdi only in November, I spoke and said we have devalued human life more than we have devalued the naira. People find the value of human life very low. What about what happened in Taraba or what happened in Benue . Have they got to do with Osama bin Laden? No. What about all the problems in Modakeke? The one common thing, the one common strand is that people just kill. So instead of debate, instead of negotiation people believe that killing is negotiation continued by other means or negotiation terminated. I think we have a very serious problem in Nigeria of devaluation of human life and I spoke to one distinguished member of the Oputa panel when he came here telling him that the panel should make a statement on the devaluation of human life because there can be no greater violation of human rights than killing somebody. They didn’t.

Newswatch: But isn’t this a failure of our own security apparatus….(cuts in)

Aminu: No. It is a society which is very tense, a society which has not been united around a common idea of the country, a society facing the problem of poverty and stifling economic conditions. We have not addressed the problems. I think even the best friends of any government in Nigeria would agree that these things have not been addressed. I have been talking about the unemployment of youths, the frustration of youths and you know what, these things are done by the youths—all the fighting, anything you can think of, they are being done by the youths. You don’t find old people killing each other. It is the youths. Therefore we are mainly talking about the problems of the youths which have not been addressed at all in Nigeria . And I can say this in front of anybody that it is a disgrace that people now finish university education, finish in polytechnics and even second degrees and there is no clear thing worked out which in all developing societies is the number one problem—employment. They know this is a source of poverty, this is a source of resentment, this is a source of unrest and we are not doing anything about it.

Newswatch: Let me take you back. Before the killings in Kaduna over the Miss World affair, there was a precursor which was the burning of ThisDay’s office in the city allegedly over an article in the newspaper. Could the police or other security agents not have anticipated that the situation may degenerate into a more deadly affair?

Aminu:  No. If you don’t have tension, what ThisDay said, nasty as it might have been, did not warrant any rioting. It did not warrant the burning of the newspaper’s office. It was done by youths who were frustrated and resentful. I think we have never had a newspaper demonstrate so much remorse for any mistake made that those of us who are hoping to be forgiven by God for our sins should learn to forgive ThisDay because they really went out of their way to show remorse. But all of these fires, rioting and killing are still symptoms of a society that has not elaborated properly the means of expressing disagreements. We have not established a means of dialogue. We have not established the means of treating each other with dignity to the extent that if things happen, like all civilised people, we should sit and talk about it. The one common thing you have in all of this—whether you are talking about Modakeke or Taraba or Aguleri or OPC in Lagos —there is very little value added to human life. People, instead of talking, fight. This is a problem in Nigeria ; it is a serious problem. You don’t have to go round looking for any religion or anything; it is a problem in our country. We have to learn to do things differently and add higher value to human life.

Newswatch: Is it devaluation that has made some people to continue to keep the fatwa on the head of the young ThisDay reporter?

Aminu: When I talk about devaluation that is usually expressed on the streets. Not by fatwa issued by people. This fatwa issued by people is a consequence of the serious politicisation of religion in Nigeria . I think the whole thing starts from having a Christian Association of Nigeria, a big organisation of one religion. There is no Muslim Organisation of Nigeria. You have CAN but you don’t have MON and like I was saying in my Champion lecture two years ago, we must make sure that there is no Muslim association formed. The leaders of CAN really have to sit down to discuss whether Christians require an association. You can have a Catholic General Council, Protestant General Council, things like that, but an association? No. Obviously the association could not have been formed for religious purposes; it must have been formed for some political purposes.

Newswatch: Isn’t CAN on the same level as the Supreme Council for Islam in Nigeria ?

Aminu: No, it is not because there is no Muslim Association of Nigeria with branches in various places. This thing has led to the politicisation of religion starting from about 1977 with the sharia in the constitution; later on about the OIC. It is just an indication about how, because of the politicisation of religion, we are polarising the nation. One thing that used to happen, if you have noticed, is that most riots occur during the military more than civilian government. Why? I used to say because people were trying to express themselves and they didn’t have the political platform. Now there is political platform and people should seek to express their differences as between members of PDP, ANPP, UNPP, SDP, PRP, e.t.c. That is really what I expected would have happened from 1999. But we still have this polarisation as a result of religion. Maybe it is time we address it along with the problems of youths, problems of poverty and degradation of human life. We have religious leaders advising people what to do to see that this time the presidency goes to the South or the presidency goes to the North. A religious leader is everybody’s leader.

Newswatch: But does this explain the fatwa on the head of ThisDay reporter? Is it right?

Aminu: Do you know what fatwa means?

Newswatch: It is a sort of death sentence.

Aminu: No, fatwa means opinion. Fatwa is supposed to be a disciplined opinion, but it is an opinion. It is the opinion of this Mallam. In my view he should not have issued it because there are other ways of dealing with this matter. It was issued by Ayatollah Khomeini against Salman Rushdie but it has not affected him. In fact, it has lionised him…

Newswatch: To come back to politics, why do you want to go into the Senate?

Aminu: Why not?

Newswatch: It has always been thought that you’ll want to run for president. So why the Senate now? 

Aminu: Because the word Senate means old and I think it is a good place for people like me in Nigeria to go and contribute to some of the things we have been talking about. It doesn’t mean that I am not going to contest any other post. I personally did not think, in the context of the PDP that the presidency was going to the North and I happen to come from the North and I am not going to waste my time on that. I have been here (Washington) for three years and thank God I have gained a lot in terms of my health, my family, in terms of having friends, learning a lot and enjoying people’s kindness. I have done all that. I have really benefited enormously and I thank President Obasanjo. But I think for a man of my age, after three and a half years I should go home. And after looking round at the political situation, I think the best position for me at this time is to go into the Senate.

Newswatch: Looking at the Senate and with their level of contribution to good governance or lack of it in the nearly four years of democracy, do you see yourself as being able to make an impact within that body?

Aminu: Are you saying that we cannot improve in this country?

Newswatch: That’s what I am asking you. Can things improve in the Senate?

Aminu: I believe our Senate can improve. I can say that even in the present Senate. I can mention the names of lots of people for whom I have very great respect. And I believe that working together with people of like-minds can make a lot of difference. I think a lot of the problems of the Nigerian Senate were created outside the Senate. A lot of the problems of the Nigerian House of Reps were created outside the House of Reps. Problems of our National Assembly were created outside the National Assembly. They were caused by the endless dogfights with the executive which were completely unnecessary and diversionary and should not have arisen. This should just not happen this time. This time the executive should learn to leave the National Assembly alone. Likewise, the National Assembly should leave the executive alone, except in areas in which they have jurisdiction, as defined by the constitution. These are two bodies that should have been working individually and co-operatively. It did not happen and that affected the House of Reps and the Nigerian Senate. While many people tend to underrate the National Assembly in these last four years, at least the House of Reps has managed to work together as a body and the Senate has managed to work together. They did not become centres of polarisation in Nigeria. They could have been centres of polarisation on the basis of geography or ethnicity or even on the basis of political affiliation. At least these young men and women were working together very well. That, to me is a big sign of hope.

Newswatch: But the prevalent opinion is that they are the new rich class of Nigeria. While ordinary Nigerians are suffering, the legislators are feeding fat on the country’s resources. How do you respond to this?

Aminu: That obviously is not true. They are not the new rich. Many of them came to the National Assembly already rich.

Newswatch: But that cannot be said of many of them, yet, practically all of them are now with good money.

Aminu: I don’t think members of the National Assembly have made the kind of money you are talking about. Where did they get the money when they are always quarrelling about their votes with the executive?

Newswatch: Now that you are in the thick of politics as a senatorial candidate, can you give us an assessment of the last PDP convention, the problems that arose and how they were resolved?

Aminu: There were many serious problems but I think people are not probably approaching them well. The convention itself was faultless as it was carried out. And do you know who my hero was at the convention? It was Tom Ikimi. He was my hero because I was delighted to see a Nigerian who could be working all day standing, tirelessly walking up and down; who made sure that he gave the individual ballot paper to every delegate and who all night kept opening every box and announcing the votes. I got tired about 11.00 p.m., went to sleep and woke up to still hear Ikimi announcing the votes. I think Ikimi was the hero of the convention regardless of who won or lost and I must look for the opportunity to compliment him personally one of these days.

The convention was transparent but I could tell you that when Dr. Ekwueme said the convention was a charade, he might have a point but not in the way he said it. What made the convention questionable were the rules of the PDP as a party as obtained in its constitution but Dr. Ekwueme was the president of the board of trustees, a very eminent lawyer, in addition to his other great attributes. He would have seen that these things were wrong. Instead, even when he had asked his delegates to go for meetings before the convention, they didn’t raise these points, very fundamental points.

As a Senate aspirant, I was nominated in Adamawa Central Constituency by a constituent assembly of at least 2,000 people, in the seven local governments. On the other hand, my governor was nominated by a constituent assembly of less than 150 people. And this was in the constitution of the party. It is common to all the older parties. Probably only the new ones can escape this kind of arrangement. How could we have allowed this type of thing to happen? At least you would have expected the governor to have been nominated by a constituency of 5,000 or 6,000 people. In fact, the best thing to do is to do open primaries to let people indicate who they want. But most of the delegates that went to the convention were from this small constituency that nominated the governor. And if you look well, you’ll find that most of them were people that they put there. You had ministers, commissioners, special advisers and they did something which I thought was wrong; they added chairmen of parastatals. I could not find that in the constitution of the PDP. This is why the result was already determined.

If this was what Dr. Ekwueme was talking about, he might have had a point. The only thing is people like you and me would have said to him ‘but you were chairman of the board of trustees, why didn’t you bring those points out?’ He made a lot of issue about the secrecy of voting. But I am glad to see that his office has acknowledged that you really cannot know how every individual voted because even though there were numbers there was no orderly way of people filing in to come and vote.

Let me give you an example using Adamawa. You could tell the way the Vice-President Atiku voted because he was number one on the line. You could tell the way Governor Boni Haruna voted because he was number two on the line. You knew how these two would have voted anyway. But after that people just filed in, in no particular order. You had probably the most senior people near the end. But there was no way anybody could have claimed to know how people voted. So I don’t think, with all respect, he has got any point about that particular issue.

He had other problems. He started late and I personally think that a very distinguished man like him was treated shabbily by people who waited till the very end to push him to run. If he had entered earlier, it would have been a different matter. But I must say that all attempts to paint the convention as something which was rigged that day is wrong. The results were determined before we came and I expected Dr. Ekwueme to have known that. If I was going to advise him or if I had seen him I would have told him he was probably not going to win the ticket of the PDP.

Newswatch: Who did you vote for, Obasanjo or Ekwueme?

Aminu: How can you ask me this? What is the point about secrecy?

Newswatch: The convention is over. So why can’t you tell?

Aminu: You are violating my fundamental human right.

Newswatch: Did the right candidate emerge?

Aminu: In so far as the PDP rules and regulations and the whole structure of the party, yes, absolutely, the right candidate emerged because he was voted for according to the rules.

Newswatch: Are you going to throw your weight behind Obasanjo’s campaign?

Aminu: Of course, I am going to campaign for him. I am leaving here (Washington, DC) as soon as I can to go to join his campaign. I will also do my own campaign because I still have to campaign. I will join the state campaign. But most important of all, I will join the presidential campaign. Would you tell me why, all things being equal I will not campaign for Obasanjo? Can you tell me?

Newswatch: No, I cannot tell you. You’ll have to tell us.

Aminu: Thank you; next question.

Newswatch: Who were the people who misled Ekwueme?

Aminu: I don’t know, I don’t know.

Newswatch: But there is the speculation that Babangida was behind Ekwueme’s decision to run.

Aminu: Well, I didn’t talk about him. I didn’t mention his name but you see, the most dangerous beast, the most dangerous animal in Nigeria is called the committee of friends and they can put you into anything. I don’t know who were members of his committee of friends, but these committees can do all sorts of things. All I know is he was really, for a very distinguished and accomplished man like him, treated very shabbily.

Newswatch: Based on your own knowledge of Nigerian politics, weren’t you in the know of the opinion that Babangida was instrumental to him running?

Aminu: I don’t know. All I know is that I asked Babangida about the significance of Dr. Ekwueme announcing he was going to run in Minna. It was an accident and President Babangida told me he was not in town that day and that Dr. Ekwueme was there to thank the people of Minna, which was exactly how Ekwueme himself explained the situation later on. So I cannot see how you can suddenly link President Babangida to this.

Newswatch: But were you aware that the vice-president was going to ditch Obasanjo and that he had reached agreement with Ekwueme?

Aminu: I don’t think he had ever reached agreement with Ekwueme. If he had reached agreement with Ekwueme, the situation would have been different. All I know is that I was a bit worried when I arrived in Abuja for the convention. I was told that the vice-president was talking to the BBC and had said at that time he had not made up his mind. It worried me a bit. But by the next day, those of us who came from the North-East held a meeting in the liaison office and residence of the governor of Taraba where President Obasanjo came and Vice-President Atiku came and talked to us and it was quite clear that they were going together.

Newswatch: What was the level of the horse-trading that had gone on before the convention was eventually held?

Aminu: There was a lot of horse-trading.

Newswatch: The prevalent fact was that there was the belief that Ekwueme was going to win the ticket.

Aminu: There was a lot of horse-trading, there always is and sometimes they deal not only in horses but in cows. The stakes were very high because we are talking about the presidency of Nigeria. If there was no horse-trading, we’ll be very disappointed, even you will be disappointed. I think what happened was, probably the position of the governors was very important. If they supported any candidate in any number at all, that candidate was likely to make it. And I think that going and coming, before the convention had to do with securing the support of the people at the top and as well as the governors.

Newswatch: Would you then say that the vice-president was Obasanjo’s joker in winning the re-nomination of the PDP?

Aminu: I think he played a very important role although, as you know, he is very humble and modest. He does not come out to lay claims but it is quite evident because since the matter involved talking to the governors, he played a big role. But don’t also forget that President Obasanjo knows the governors; he has been talking to them and meeting with them and even before the convention, the governors had a very big dinner with him in The Villa. Obviously, if the vice-president would not play a very significant role, he would not have been picked.

Newswatch: The question goes to the heart of the support for Obasanjo in the North. In the last few years there have been complaints about the president for not performing well. The ACF has been critical of Obasanjo just like groups in other parts of the country. The perception is that the ACF is very influential. So how could Obasanjo win PDP ticket again?

Aminu: Let me tell you something. It was very easy to predict by what I have already said that this was a delegates’ event. It is very important to understand this. All the power that was expressed by people there had to do with the delegates. The commodity was the delegates' vote. I think our party should know this and I think they do. It is very easy to manipulate delegates but it is not easy to manipulate voters. There are many more voters. That is an indication of the amount of work we have in front of us. A small number of delegates might reach a decision which might not be pleasing to majority of the voters. Our task now is to make the voters repeat what the delegates did. That is the job we have in front of us.

Newswatch: So, do you see an uphill task for Obasanjo in the North?

Aminu: ACF is a Northern advocacy group. There is nothing wrong with that and I respect them and I have always said that nobody should underrate their views. By the time of the convention they had agreed not to get involved in nominating candidates or recommending candidates. If you recollect there was this pressure on them to find one candidate for the North. Now they did not do that. If you also remember, Vice-President Atiku, who worked quite a bit for the ACF, said the ACF was not a political party and it should not be involved in nominating candidates. So I think probably by the time we came to the convention the ACF had ridden itself of the business of trying to find a candidate.

Newswatch: Now that the ANPP has chosen Buhari as its candidate, how do you now see the role of the ACF?

Aminu: The ANPP people in the association will go back to their party, just like my brother M. D. Yusuf will go back to his party, MDJ. He will tell his party members which way to vote.

Newswatch: That’s what I am asking you. Do you see it an as uphill task for President Obasanjo to win votes in the North based on the complaints of the ACF?

Aminu: Let me tell you straight away that it would be much more difficult than with the votes of the delegates because the delegates number and composition are distinct from that of the mass of voters. I think our party will have a task on its hands. Our task as I said earlier is to make the masses repeat what the delegates have done. It would not be easy but we will try.

Newswatch: Is your party confident that you’ll get your flag bearer, Obasanjo, re-elected?

Aminu: We are confident but we are not sleeping on it. People always talk about voting for continuity and it has become almost like a permanent cliché in the vocabulary of the PDP people. I personally do no think Nigerians care about continuity. In fact they are not always pleased about it. They are very hesitant about continuity. It is a question of better the devil you know. People will always be more comfortable with people they know and this inertia is what is interpreted as loving continuity. It is the prospect of what would come with discontinuity which is unknown that they are worried about.

Newswatch: How do you see the Igbo factor now that Ike Nwachukwu and Ojukwu are running too?

Aminu: This will add to the unpredictability of the election. I have always said that I believe that President Obasanjo will win but not as easily as in 1999. Although I doubt it, you may even get an undecided election at the first round and you have to do a run-off. I believe the effect that my brother Nwachukwu can have is to have a run-off. If there is a run-off they will not take part because it will be number one and number two and I think that it will be the PDP and the ANPP. But the way I look at things is that we will win, although not by as wide a margin as we did the other time.

Newswatch: If Obasanjo wins a second term, wouldn’t there still be problem in 2007 for PDP as to where its presidential candidate is going to come from? Chances are that the Igbo and the minorities of the South-South are going to make their cases at that time more loudly. How do you address that?

Aminu: Let us talk first of all about the very important issue of if Obasanjo wins this election in April and by the grace of God he shall win because that is what we are going to work for. I think what he does will be important in trying to forecast 2007. There are two ways by which the president can react to victory. He could say that despite all the machinations, anger and feeling, ‘I have won and so I will do as I please and there is no reason for me to change because obviously I won with what I did last time.’ It is possible, but there is another way. He will say okay ‘this re-election was more difficult than my first election and I think I should go back to the things that made me very attractive and made people come to look for me to run. Obviously what has been going on is different, otherwise I would not have had so much trouble with people who are my friends running away from me, so I am going to change.’ I believe this is what President Obasanjo will do when he wins. How he behaves will definitely affect what happens in 2007.

I know what the people in the North believed; they were very confident about General Obasanjo as president and they went for him. And then there were complaints about his performance. So many people felt that this time we must have someone from the North. All this noise about the ACF is really because of that. In 2007, the presidency would have been in the South for eight years if President Obasanjo wins. And that used to be the worry of the people in the North and I have discussed this with a number of people concerned and pointed this thing out to them. And the people in the North are saying that there are three options. One, is to help President Obasanjo stay another term. Two, is for the president to remain in the South but for another part of the South. Three, is to have a president from the North. People are very worried about what would happen in 2007. That was one reason really why a lot of people in the North were talking about Dr. Ekwueme because then the presidency would have been in the South for eight years, not in one part, then in 2007 there would be no problem at all about moving the presidency to the North.

Now with the Igbo and the people of  the South-South raising their voices so high about getting the presidency, particularly as this thing, the rotation matter, is not entrenched in the constitution, you can see that in 2007 the North will say the presidency has been in the South for eight years and by the principle of rotation it should come to the North and the people in the East would say ‘no, we in the East or in the South-South have been waiting for too long’ and they will open up a new argument and debate and acrimony between the East and the former Northern region. Then the quarrel again would be between the East and the North but the West would have finished its eight years and would sit down not being too concerned about the matter or play the role of the devil’s advocate. So this is something that we have to consider very seriously. And I sincerely hope we should not wait until the end to address it. And we should not also let it occupy our minds, our psyche, or our debate for the next four years. In other words we should find an amicable way quickly of settling this so that by 2007 we are through with it.

Now comes the identity of potential candidates. Would the vice-president stand? Will somebody else stand? I believe the way people behave in this particular election has left the question open because Abubakar Rimi stood this time even though by the principle of rotation he should not have stood and the PDP should not have allowed him to stand. Barnabas Gemade stood from the North. By the principle of rotation, he should not have stood. Buhari is now the candidate of the ANPP. By the principle of rotation, if all parties had observed it, he should not have stood. So the politicians themselves by their impatience have left the question open. So from next year, I think we shall see serious competition between the North and the East and I doubt if any part will leave the field free for the other. That brings us back to this old problem of where the president comes from, who has got it, who has failed to get it and who will gang up with and against whom, a leftover of the First Republic. So that is a problem and it is what you might call one of the issues of the national question. It has to be addressed. I think people should stop this attitude of trying to leave things until the end. 

Newswatch: How do you think that Buhari’s image will go down in different parts of the country?

Aminu: He has problems. It may well be that in the context of political parties he may be able to overcome these by certain utterances, certain undertakings and certain compromises. But he has problems. Number one is that he really has not been in politics for that long compared to say President Obasanjo or President Babangida. At one time he was averse to politics and politicians. That requires a lot of effort to overcome. Number two, he has the problem of his time as military ruler, with people like President Babangida, with people like a lot of politicians who were detained, a lot of the businessmen who were detained. He has that problem. Of course he has also got a new group of friends, particularly people who benefited from the PTF when he was chairman.

So you have to balance this. But even on this balance, I think he has a lot of work to do, particularly with people who were detained in 1984-85 and some of them are very bitter—people like Umaru Dikko and rightly so because even his little son was detained, hoping that it would make him come back and the story about the crate. So I think that General Buhari has some work but we hope we will be able to beat them. Then number three, I think they are trying to slap Islamic accusation on him, although I think that really should not carry any water because even the president is a born-again Christian and he has said so and nobody has sought to hang him on that.

Newswatch: The accusation against Buhari is that he believes that Muslims should only vote for Muslim candidates.

Aminu: He did not say so. He denied it. And that is the thing about Nigeria, if they slap something on you, that is it. I don’t think that is a serious problem except that people are just mischievous because they know that religious blackmail sticks and so they are using it. But honestly it is not fair on Buhari. He has far more substantial issues to deal with as I have already enumerated—people he dealt with and people like Babangida whom he has maintained an abusive relations with. Buhari is being presented as honest, straight- forward and not tolerating indiscipline. All these are good but they are qualities that are assumed every leader must have. These are the minimum requirement. I don’t think we can put honesty and not tolerating indiscipline as a manifesto. We need to know what he will do. He has to tell the people what he is going to do with the economy, society, how he is going to increase the prosperity of our people, improve our foreign relations because these were areas we were in deficit at his time. I am sure he must have heard of the saying that you should ‘beware of the man who loudly protests his honesty and the woman her virtue.’

Newswatch: It has been said that the sultan of Sokoto has settled the problem between Buhari and Babangida; what is your stake on this?

Aminu: I have only heard about it but I cannot believe it because I don’t think the sultan will get involved in it because he is the father of everybody. He is the father of Nwobodo, he is the father of Ike Nwachukwu. He is everybody’s father. There are 30 political parties. So when people say he is trying to reconcile two people, I don’t understand that. So I believe this is the usual exaggeration of Nigeria. Buhari needs to get to speak to Babangida because he has been very abusive of Babangida. And when I say abusive, I don’t mean in words but in treatment. Recently he said he was not going to reconcile with him and all the time Babangida never said a word. So if somebody who has been abusing you asks you to come and help him get a higher post, a post of power that can conceivably be a position to harm you, I’m sure people will think twice. I think President Babangida, who is a very shrewd and calculating man will look at this very well. And as a friend of Babangida, he’s a man I admire very well, I will advise that he will better be served by the Obasanjo/Atiku ticket.

Let’s even talk about this business of the North being angry with the president. They were. You remember the president saying he didn’t sign anything we brought to him and that he refused. I said in my own opinion and as chairman of the committee, he signed. Whatever was between Obasanjo and the North was not something that was hidden. But whatever the problem, I think it can be overcome. With the benefit of working for Obasanjo at this time as distinct from the candidate that I had seen in the past, I think a lot had changed in him. But there are a lot of problems in the states between the governors and the people, I wish there weren’t such problems. However, at the national level, I personally think that we will make it and whatever differences had been between Obasanjo and the North they have been well expressed and would be sorted out.

Newswatch: Is the North going to give him something to sign again this time? And why was there a need to make him to sign something in the first place?

Aminu: That is not the point. That’s normal politics and it is even done here in the U. S. They call it platform. You come with your agenda to the table. If you want me to work with you, then I come with my agenda.

Newswatch: But platform in America is different here. It is a total package.

Aminu: No. I come with my own worries and tell you this is my agenda and I ask you how much of it are you prepared to take on board? The politicians in the North decided we were not going to contest. Nobody called us and told us not to. We just decided we were not going to contest in 1999 but we had some concerns about the North and so we had to bring them to his attention. What we did was perfectly legitimate and I will do it tomorrow even to you.

Newswatch: Whose interest? Isn’t that narrow interest?

Aminu: No

Newswatch: Why couldn’t you tell Obasanjo this is what we want you to do nationally, for Nigeria?

Aminu: If you look at that list there were things that had to do with the nation too. The most important thing for us was that we would not agree to any arrangement that would weaken Federal Government and weaken national unity.

Newswatch: Obasanjo said he didn’t sign. You said he signed the agreement. Who’s telling the truth? Who should Nigerians believe?

Aminu: I think it depends on the way people interpret things with time. There was no doubt in our mind that what he did amounted to signing.

Newswatch: All the ministerial posts you wanted you got, didn’t you?

Aminu: You must have seen the details of the paper. These are some of the things that President Obasanjo should be going and saying to people: ‘Okay, I might say I have not signed but I have done this, I have done that.’ The whole Obasanjo argument then was look ‘I am a friend of the North, I wouldn’t hurt the North.’ He can now go round during this campaign and say to them ‘I’ve done it. I haven’t hurt the North. I gave you this ministry and I gave you that ministry. I gave you this job and I gave you that one.’ This is what he has to say in the next few weeks.

Newswatch: But he is saying he didn’t sign it. Does it grate on the nerves of the political elite in the North?

Aminu: Yes, it did grate on the nerves of people, even me, although I am not a powerful man.

Newswatch: And you don’t think that would continue to create problems for him?

Aminu: No. I don’t think it is going to continue to create problems for him because the matter is finished. After my press release did you hear anything about it again? He obviously accepts that there is difference in interpretation. Haven’t you seen Bakassi? We went into the court thing on the basis that we were going to accept the judgment, isn’t it? But once the judgment was delivered we said we were not going to accept it.

Newswatch: Going back to Babangida, when my colleagues and I met him in Minna, he told us that if he wakes up and does not see his name in the papers being associated with one thing or the other, he worries. What in your view is the relevance of Babangida in everything we do and how do you see his political future?

Aminu: President Babangida is a very charismatic person and that is why he draws so much attention. I happened to have seen his interview with The Source and I interjected that some people are busy trying to draw attention to himself but everybody pays attention to him. That is just a gift from God.

Newswatch: Is Babangida the new Awo?

Aminu: No, he is not the new Awo. And I think you will not have a new Awo; you will not have a new Sardauna; you will not have a new Zik and you will not have a new Abubakar Tafawa Balewa. Maybe it would have been a good thing to have one but they have served their time. They did really wonderful things for this country but they have served their time and we should stop disturbing them in their places of rest by insisting that they should govern us even after they have gone. It is escapism for us to sit down quoting the names of our leaders gone instead of sitting down to think hard about how we are going to face the challenging issues of today. We should stop that. If you go to China and go to Tiananmen Square, you’ll still find huge portrait of Chairman Mao but nobody will tell you that China is still being run by Chairman Mao. No way. Yes, he left China as a country, with a personality, with tradition, with culture, with uniqueness which helps them even as they try to move towards the market economy and democratic government. They still have that as an anchor. But they are moving forward. So also the good things done by Chief Awolowo, by Abubakar, by Sardauna and by Zik, we should not forget them.

Newswatch: Are you saying that some parts of the country are living in the past?

Aminu: Oh yes, particularly the South-West.

Newswatch: How?

Aminu: Because up till now they are still sticking to that sort of politics. People who were under Awo keep talking about him. We should leave that now. We should move now to face the challenges of the 21st century. Let me tell you something, even though I consider myself in many ways to be a Yoruba man because I was brought up there and I don’t have hesitations talking about things there, since about 1951 the Yoruba have not voted for anyone enmasse out of their ethnic group. The Northerners voted for Abiola and Obasanjo and were responsible for their victory. The Easterners voted for Shagari and for Obasanjo. The South-South, the minorities voted for Shagari, for Obasanjo, for Abiola. In every election, the vast majority of Yoruba still gravitate towards a Yoruba candidate. This should stop. And there is some progress being made. Now you can belong to any political party in the West without anybody harassing you or turning off your tap or turning off your light. People who attended the 1995 constitutional conference, their houses were torched. This should stop. I really have to appeal to our people in the South-West and I know I am not the only one.

I know there are a lot of great Yoruba men who have been trying to work on this for a long time. People like General Adeyinka Adebayo have been working on this for a long time, trying to bring the Yoruba into the mainstream. That is what we should do in the South-West; come into the rest of Nigeria. The people in the South-West are very well- equipped to compete. Right now not even many can compete with them. Look at the level of education, look at the advances in commerce. Everything is really loaded to give them very powerful position to compete and to win. And that is what they should do.

Newswatch: But isn’t democracy also about choice, a choice that says you may not necessarily have to look beyond where you are to find what you want?

Aminu: That is not democracy. Of course you can vote the way you want. Nobody said what they did was illegal. It is just impolitic. It is not illegal at all. I agree with you even if the choice was forced upon people by intimidation and threat.

Newswatch: Do you think it is easy to manipulate the Yoruba voters?

Aminu: People used to be intimidated in the West. People used to be harassed when they joined other political parties that are not the mainstream ones in the West but as I have said we are making progress. There are people in Yorubaland who entered PDP even before Obasanjo joined—people like Sunday Afolabi, people like Agagu, people like Dapo Sarumi, the Ojikutus. There are many highly regarded Yoruba people who joined the party at the time. Some progress is being made and I just think that we now should have a situation where I want to see the Yoruba voting for PDP not because Obasanjo is a candidate but because it is their party. That is what I will like to see. I want the Fulani to do that and I want the Igbo to do that. Everybody should really do that.

I just want to appeal to the Yoruba again to remember the play by the late Chief Hubert Ogunde—Yoruba Ronu in the early 60s, some 40 years ago—to take up the advice but from a different perspective. He was advising the Yoruba to think and look in, the Afenifere type of mentality. Now I am advising them to ronu (think) and look out, open outward and take their rightful position in the country. There is really no peaceful way of breaking up Nigeria and I agree even the Yoruba talking about all this do not want to break up Nigeria. Nobody likes to see the country broken up. We should go a step further from being not interested in breaking up the country to making a positive step towards keeping the country one. Let’s get rid of this attitude that we have to sit down, reconsider how we associate with ourselves. The ordinary people know how to associate with themselves; it is the political elite jostling for public offices who claim they don’t know how to associate with themselves. It looks to me that the elites are leading from behind; the ordinary people are far ahead in forging one united nation.

Newswatch: What is your fear for the country as we go into the elections?

Aminu: I went to a conference at NDI (National Democratic Institute) yesterday and I told them that as of that day, I was much more reassured about Nigeria than before the primaries. And you know why? The primaries, defective as they were, have now put Nigeria into a situation where the elections would be a battle among parties—Buhari in ANPP, Obasanjo in PDP, Jim Nwobodo in UNPP, Ike Nwachukwu in NDP. Parties are now fighting, not individuals or tribes or regions. It may well be that had President Obasanjo lost the PDP nomination the reaction of the Yoruba would have been that he was denied this. That would have been a given. But he got the nomination. So I feel a lot better. But there are still some problems. Number one, there is a lot of concern about the sheer logistics, the capacity of INEC to carry the process through. There were problems with the registration of voters, including allegations that people were not registered and that some people were hoarding voters’ cards. These things have to be sorted out and we must have confidence in the election. We must not lose confidence in the election in advance. This has nothing to do with tribe, religion or political party affiliation. Then I am also concerned about how people would react if they lose. It could be our party, it could be ANPP, it could be any governor of any party. When people insist that they must win and the result comes out and they have lost, how are they going to react? This is very important because the first thing people would say is that they rigged and then they go round collecting tribal, religious and ethnic support and accusing everybody of rigging. How are people going to react if they lose, if voters do not favour them? That worries me.

Number three, I am worried about the real possibility of hung election. We did not have anything like that in 1999 but in 1979 we saw what could happen when the results were not that decisive. I am worried now because even President Obasanjo will agree that the ANPP is a much stronger party now than it was in 1999. So we have to worry about the possibility of a run-off and worry about horse-trading and that kind of atmosphere that is going to come. Then I also think that we need to take religious leaders or advocates out of this. They have to get out. Right now there is too much of it. Actually, you only pursue your right to the point that you do not trample on the rights of others. Nigerians are entitled to have a free and fair and accepted election and to get a government formed.

We have another problem. Our economy is in serious trouble for many reasons. We need to, as soon as possible, return to that with President Obasanjo or anybody. If we don’t return to that, we’ll grind to a halt. So we should not make this election seem like everything, the be-all and end-all. Then the final worry I have about this election is that psychological barrier we have to cross, which is an election organised by a civilian government to hand over power either to itself in an acceptable way or to another civilian government. We’ve never had it. We tried it in 1964, we didn’t succeed. It was followed by a coup in 1966. We tried it in 1983; it also did not succeed and was followed by a coup a few months later. We need to overcome this psychological barrier. Along with it is also the psychological barrier of people having confidence in the ballot box and realising that a loss today is not a loss forever. Look at it now, 1999 is like yesterday and people are now coming to run for elections again. Our people have to learn to have confidence in the ballot box whereby if I win today, the possibility still exists that I may lose next time. But as a politician that’s what keeps me going. Indeed, we have a lot of reasons to be concerned about the election. But I am not going to mention the military because at least for the time being they are behind the process, but it would be foolish not to realise that they are there.

Newswatch: Should we really be worried about them, I mean the military?

Aminu: I have never discounted them because there is nothing the military likes more than to be underrated by the opponent. If you underrate them, they are very happy about it because they can take action without you suspecting. But right now I do not see that problem on the horizon. I think the problem we would have would be with the political parties.

Newswatch: It does seem that from your argument, if we had run the economy well, things would have been much better now. How then would you characterise the running of the economy in the last few years?

Aminu: I think the most important problem our economy faces is that with the best of will in the world, the leaders do not have time to attend to it. Look at the economies of the big countries, 60 to 70 percent of the time of their leaders is spent on it. Look at even America, until recently it was the number one priority of the Bush administration. Our leaders have not spent enough time on our economy. What I notice and find our leaders doing, although it is not always their intention, is all the time holding conferences, planning and putting committees together to make recommendations about what to do which are never implemented. These recommendations are always remarkably similar to the ones made 20 or 30 years ago. Because we have not moved, we spend a lot of time on such things. Then we spend too much time settling disputes—among people, among politicians, among senators and so on. Then there are too many celebrations and for the wrong reasons too. They take too much time that we should devote to the serious problems of the economy.

Newswatch: This obviously indicates that Obasanjo is a bad economic manager, doesn’t it?

Aminu: No, no. You should be fair to him. Obasanjo is facing serious economic problems that he never dreamt of.

Newswatch: Well, looking at the past four years, has this government got any economic focus at all? Can you see it?

Aminu: They have to retool and I think the most important thing is for us to get our priorities right and stop wasting time on other unnecessary matters.

Newswatch: If Obasanjo wins a second term, would people be fair if they tell him to sit at home and stop travelling all over the place?

Aminu: I believe Obasanjo has been through a lot in the last year and he wouldn’t be the same man. My guess is that he would be somebody who will stay at home a lot more because he has done all his travelling and he is very angry anyway because he says they have not yielded very much. I also believe that he has found it is so unnecessary to waste so much time on the legislators. He is going to allow them to get on with their job and he also gets on with his own job. I think on the whole, if he does come back, he would be a much more amenable person. He has already seen it all. He would be a much better person.

Newswatch: I think for the discerning, the question is how could Obasanjo have missed the South African example? With all the travelling that President Mandela did, not much went into his country in terms of foreign direct investment.

Aminu: Mandela did not have the problems we have in Nigeria and South Africa did not have the problems we have. It is a matter of confidence.

Newswatch: We were talking about economic problems earlier on. What about this problem with the on-shore/off-shore oil dichotomy which is threatening the existence of the country? You have the 19 Northern governors passionately opposed to even the meagre concession given by the government while the oil-producing states are angry that Obasanjo has not signed the new legislation on the issue. How do you reconcile these two views of the same issue?

Aminu: You have to understand that the president cannot tell you everything. Number two, if President Obasanjo is not agreeing to this thing he must have jolly good reasons. He is a politician and it is not as if he does not know that politically this may cost him but he has found the problem too big for him to take just a legislative view of it. And if President Obasanjo, in this election year, refuses to sign the bill, he must have very good reasons. It can be that this is something he cannot live with and which he believes the country cannot live with. Why can’t we have the charity of looking at the thing like that. The sum total of this thing is that as the chief executive officer of the country, the person who embodies the spirit of this country, he says I am not going to sign this and it has nothing to do with where he comes from but because he feels the country cannot live with it. Why can’t people listen to that?

Newswatch: But the National Assembly can override his veto

Aminu: I don’t think the National Assembly will override his veto. I don’t think so. I think they will talk quite a lot about it.

Newswatch: Are you optimistic about democracy in Nigeria?

Aminu: Democracy, as President Obasanjo says, is a process. And when we say this, we should really recognise that it is a process, particularly at the state level where some governors think the process of democracy begins and ends with their election. If they come through election, they assume the election is free and fair and therefore, democracy has completed its task and then they can go and behave in any way they like, as if they are the military. I think that is wrong. Democracy is a process and this must be shown to be recognised at every level of government decision and activity. Everybody must ensure that they live a democratic life. It doesn’t happen now and I regret a situation where there had been riots and deaths in some states and accusing fingers are pointed at the governors and nothing is done to them. It is really amazing. Here, if tomorrow the president of the United States, God forbid, is found to have been associated with anything felonious, he will answer to the police. You can see what happened to President Clinton as an example. So how could things happen in some states and accusing fingers are pointed at governors and nothing happens? It is very terrible. For democracy to work these are some of the lessons we must learn.

 Newswatch: What would satisfy you most having been Ambassador to the America for more than three years?

Aminu: What satisfies me is that I understand a lot. Even in Nigeria I will be able to help people to understand what America says and does. I think I will be able to help them do that; understand things that are happening in America because it is a very important country. I thank God and I thank President Obasanjo that I had the opportunity of staying here for more than three years. Now I think I can talk with a bit more insight about America.

Newswatch: Does that mean that your view of America has changed somewhat or has been more enriched?

Aminu: My knowledge of America has been enriched, definitely.

Newswatch Volume 37 No. 9, March 10, 2003

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